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The Power of #19 & #20.
Topic Started: Jan 20 2016, 03:09 PM (2,252 Views)
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"And then Freeza gets all muscly and you can see his veins pulsating and the sweat just glistens on his massive pecs and ohgawdqwiujijiqskoiuiev..."

Yeah, that doesn't seem likely Gohan would go into that much detail on Freeza other than putting a cap on his power.
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Trunks assuming Freeza could tap in to his full power in an instant =/= Freeza can tap in to his full power in an instant. It is not established that Freeza can no longer, or no longer need bulk up when going 100%.

It is established that Freeza is in a state of suppression. Trunks telling him to attack him at full power doesn't mean he did, and we see no indication that he did.

I do agree that Trunks is almost guaranteed—due to his future knowledge and personality—to be above his hypothetical 100%, however.
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Saberoph
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I think it's more than note worthy that when Trunks Transforms Frieza is crapping himself and attacks Trunks the moment he's finished Transforming. Which tells me that Frieza wants to get rid of him as fast as possible. Well, why would Frieza stay suppressed if he wanted to destroy the very kind of power that completely humiliated a year ago?

Frieza not going all out makes no sense to me.
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lazerbem
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Yeah, I doubt Freeza can go 100% in his metal form. If he tried, he'd probably come rattling apart.
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I don't think he needs to "go" 100%, as in force chi into his muscles like he did on Namek. With his mechanical parts on, I'm perfectly fine with believing he can simply amp up his power without bulking up anymore, like he did up to 70%.
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SuperSaiyan1993
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Super Saiyan among Super Saiyans

1. No one indicated SSJ Sick Goku was weaker than his Yardrat iteration.
2. Yardrat Goku was stronger than Trunks, who effortlessly killed Mecha Frieza.
3. Therefore, because #19 withstood Sick Goku's attacks, #19 is stronger than Mecha Frieza.
We Super Saiyans are in a league of our own.
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First of all, no one needs to indicate that sick Goku is weaker than his Yardrat or Namek-self in order for it to be the case, since no one has said that he isn't that weak. All that happens is Piccolo making it abundantly clear that Goku is substantially weaker than he is capable of being; a statement which does not exclude him from being weaker than he was whilst on Namek, or when he first returned to Earth. Though it's not any evidence that he is, either.

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9.
Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...”
Gohan: “Y-yes…”
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”


Secondly, it seems most people view Tien's awe of Goku's power to be confirmation that he's above his Yardrat-self even whilst sick, but Tien acts as if it is the first time he's felt the power of a Super Saiyan - full stop. It is because of that that he is in awe, not because he's noticed any improvements.

Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P13.1-2
Tenshinhan: “Wh-what a ki! Amazing…! S-so this is Goku as a Super Saiyan…?!”


Clearly he's never experienced Goku as a Super Saiyan before. This second quote shows that he's never before experienced the ki of any Super Saiyan:

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”


The third point I want to make is that Goku and Vegeta would have only made quite modest power gains. We can know this by using Trunks as a measuring stick, as he is the most relevant fighter to and after Goku and Vegeta.

Chapter: 354 (DBZ 160), P4.1
Context: after No.17 knocks out Trunks
Kuririn: “O-one hit..! And he was a Super Saiyan…!”

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.2
Context: after Kuririn apologies for not joining the fight with No.17 and No.18
Piccolo: “Don’t worry about it. Even Trunks as a Super Saiyan was done in with basically one blow. It wouldn’t have made any difference if you had come.”
(Note that Piccolo is the one saying this one, indicating his inferiority to the Super Saiyans. This is going to come up again soon.)

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Tenshinhan: “Th-this is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…”

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P3.1
God: “Things turned out this way against the androids…Even for that ‘Trunks’ boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father…and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks…”


As you can you undoubtedly see, Trunks is still comparable to Goku and Vegeta, and yet he still hasn't grown strong enough to deal with the android problem in his own time - a threat that he could already fight fairly well:

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”


If Trunks had hardly improved at all, and yet remains in the same ballpark as Goku and Vegeta, then to suggest the latter two have even near double the power Goku had on Namek is ludicrous. If they were that powerful, then Trunks would have dealt with his own android situation with all the gains that would have been necessary for him to remain so close to the other two.

Next: Piccolo. As already shown when telling Krillin it was okay for him to have stayed out of the fight, Piccolo still reveres the power of the Super Saiyans. The reason most people seem to think Piccolo is at the Super Saiyan level—besides the circular logic that #20 is, therefore Piccolo is, therefore #20 is—is because when Tien says Goku's Super Saiyan power is in a different dimension, Piccolo responds with "I wonder".

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”
Piccolo: “…I wonder…”


However, this is established to be a severely weakened Goku from sickness, and, as I've hopefully demonstrated above, Goku has not grown so strong that his weakened-self absolutely can not be below his Namek-self. So if Piccolo is comparing himself to Goku's power that Tien comments upon, then that doesn't necessarily mean he's comparable to a power truly representative of a Super Saiyan.

Obviously, Piccolo has become impressively strong, as noted by Krillin:

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”


This is clearly to say he's very strong, but for someone who isn't even a Super Saiyan. It is in no way directly comparing him to a Super Saiyan. "He's a great boxer, and he's not even a professional" is not the same as saying "he's as good as a professional"; only noting how impressive he is in spite of not being one.

In-fact, the only time he's directly compared to a Super Saiyan is after his fusion with Kami. Very favourably, of course.

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P11.5-7
Kuririn: If Goku and the others are Super Saiyans, then Piccolo will be a Super Namekian.”

Chapter: 362 (DBZ 168), P2.1-7
Trunks: “Merged?! You mean he and God…?! I heard they used to be one, but split up.”
Kuririn: “They were! And Piccolo was already incredibly strong, so simply by doing that…Th-this is a Super Namekian!!”
Trunks: “Magnificent. To think that he’d be capable of this much of a power-up...”


Of course, if Piccolo is yet to be as powerful as a Super Saiyan, then #19 and #20 definitely aren't, either. Given how easily Piccolo deals with the stronger of the two. Which brings us to Piccolo wondering whether the androids weren't as strong as they expected, or whether they themselves had just grown too strong.

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...


Prior to this, Piccolo was never overly confident in their new powers, nor would he have considered whether he had grown "too strong"—that is to say, far stronger than he realised they had grown—given how seriously he treats the arrival of the androids. This thought of his is only a response to how weak the opposition turned out to be in comparison to what they were told it would be. This seems indirect confirmation to me that the power Trunks warned them about is a power that Piccolo didn't expect himself to be powerful enough for.

I have further reason to believe this, considering Trunks is still impressively more powerful than Piccolo, and Trunks has yet to deal with that power (in his own time) he was warning them about. There is no way that #19 and #20 as strong as the #17 and #18 in Trunks' time, because that would make Piccolo impressively more powerful than Trunks. Which he definitely is not.

Not to mention, them having grown too strong was only one of two possibilities he considers - not the answer to that consideration. The other possibility is that they're not as strong as they feared, and we seemingly get that answer to the question when they're revealed to be completely different androids to the ones Trunks was warning them about. Ergo, these androids are not as strong as the ones Trunks warned them about, because they're not even the androids that Trunks warned them about.

Hypothetically, and free for you to disregard this part, but isn't it also likely that Future #19 and #20 are very weak, too? Future Goku and the others didn't train, and as a result they were no match for the imminent threat. However, it wasn't Future #19 and #20 that killed them, but #17 and #18. Even without the heroes training it would seem Gero required the power of #17 and #18 to get the job done. If they themselves had the power to win, they likely would have done it themselves, like they tried in the present, don't you think?

So, I think that sums up everything on why I don't believe the manga implies Goku is much more powerful than his Namek or Yardrat-self, why Piccolo is at best comparable to a sick Super Saiyan Goku, which is probably weaker than the Super Saiyan on Namek, and why #19 and #20 and therefore even weaker still. More in the area of 50% Mecha Freeza.

Of course, you don't have to agree with me, and I'm not trying to make you, but I do feel that my position is fully justified and well reasoned.
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Lazuli
Jan 20 2016, 05:46 PM
And Trunks need not have been even as strong as 100% Freeza.

100% Freeza > #20 > #19 > Super Saiyan Trunks > (not 100%) Mecha Freeza.

Seems to work out for me.
Future Trunks [Mecha saga] is obviously much stronger than Mecha Freeza. Putting Freeza above him is ridiculous IMO.

Oh, and Trunks [Androids saga] is much stronger than Trunks [vs Mecha Freeza], so I'm afraid you are wrong.
Edited by ahill1, Feb 4 2016, 08:30 PM.
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ahill1
Feb 4 2016, 08:27 PM
Future Trunks [Mecha saga] is obviously much stronger than Mecha Freeza. Putting Freeza above him is ridiculous IMO.
I'm pretty sure I conceded this some posts after others pointed that Trunks challenged Freeza to go Full power.

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Oh, and Trunks [Androids saga] is much stronger than Trunks [vs Mecha Freeza], so I'm afraid you are wrong.
Proof?
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Lazuli
Feb 4 2016, 08:36 PM
ahill1
Feb 4 2016, 08:27 PM
Future Trunks [Mecha saga] is obviously much stronger than Mecha Freeza. Putting Freeza above him is ridiculous IMO.
I'm pretty sure I conceded this some posts after others pointed that Trunks challenged Freeza to go Full power.

Quote:
 
Oh, and Trunks [Androids saga] is much stronger than Trunks [vs Mecha Freeza], so I'm afraid you are wrong.
Proof?
Future Trunks 3 years after Gohan's death challenges the Future Androids again and after being badly defeated he said the gap between him and the Androids was still huge.

Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P17.3
Context: Trunks is in hospital after losing to the androids.
Trunks: “You were right… The gap between me and the androids was still huge…I think I’m lucky to have returned alive…”


Trunks said even fighting one on one against the Future Androids he could barely escape alive.


Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…
Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”


After 3 years, Trunks said he could fight fairly well against the Future Androids.

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”


So, Trunks went from being way weaker than the Future Androids and barely managing to escape to being able to fight them fairly well. Besides this, Goku could finger tool Future Trunks [Mecha saga]... and Tenshinhan says now in the Android arc Goku is not different than Vegeta or Trunks... and Goku trained for 3 years. In other words, Trunks went from being considerably weaker than Son Goku [Mecha saga] to being in the same realm of power of Goku and Vegeta [Androids saga].

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ahill1
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Lazuli
Jan 20 2016, 05:50 PM
Yes, but Gohan also stated Freeza gets much, much stronger than the power he was displaying on Earth. Also, Gohan only knows up to 50% Namek Freeza.

Mecha Freeza < 50% Freeza < 100% Freeza < 100% Mech Freeza (unseen).
Gohan knows Freeza Full Power too. He was on Namek when Freeza used 100% of his power.
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How do you know when Trunks says he could fight them fairly well, he wasn't talking about the same previous bout? The gap between them was still too huge for him to win, but he could have fought them fairly well. After all, they failed to finish him off, and we have nothing to suggest they were holding back.

You have as much reason to believe he's talking about a separate fight as I do to believe it's the same fight.

As for Goku being able to "finger tool" Future Trunks:

A) Goku wasn't so strong compared to Trunks that his finger was more powerful than him; this is only achieved because Goku amped his finger up with ki. Condensing his power in to a single point.

B) Even then, Trunks was holding back.
Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P13.3-5
Context: after Trunks and Goku fight
Trunks: “As expected, the rumors were true. No, you’re even greater…This was the sword that cut even Freeza…”
Goku: “You weren’t serious, after all.”


They're both stronger than Freeza, with Goku being more so, but they were always in the same realm of power. Applying a 1.2x gap between all three should more than suffice, and if we take Trunks' line about it being the sword that cut Freeza to mean he was attacking Goku with the same power he used on Freeza—as I think some people do—then the gap is plenty big enough without Trunks holding back all that much.

So, with that in mind, if you think Goku is at least double the power he was on Namek, then Trunks too would be far stronger than he was when he met Goku. In order for him to stay relevant. Using Trunks as a measuring stick, and supposing he's talking about the same fight in those two quotes, then I don't think Trunks is anywhere near doubled in power. If he had, he would have dealt with his own android problem.

Not only that, but we're lead to believe that Goku merely being around to fight when the androids came would have made all the difference. Trunks only sought to prevent him from dying via the heart virus, so he could do just that. I don't recall Trunks ever telling Goku that he's going to have to train his socks off. In-fact, wasn't it Piccolo's idea to get everyone to prepare? Therefore, a Goku without those three-years of serious training is potentially a match for the original androids. As I've said, Goku isn't necessarily that far above Trunks, and if Goku without those three-years of training—though, obviously still having gotten somewhat stronger—could match even one of the androids, then Trunks making the sort of gains you're supposing they all did should put him well above them before he re-enters the present.
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Goku's post-Yardrat power only gave Trunks some slight hope for the future, because he knew Goku wouldn't simply maintain that level of power.
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Well, it's not a fact that Trunks was banking on Goku getting stronger. He went to the past to save Goku's life so that he could be there to help fight the androids. And that's it. That's what we know he was banking on; Goku being alive to help fight the androids.

The point of Trunk's expedition is make sure Goku is around when the androids show up, not to make sure he gets stronger. And that's all we're meant to take from it, as far as I can see. The future was lost because Goku died before he could have helped his friends, not because he didn't train hard enough. Does anything suggest otherwise?

So, I think it's fair to conclude that Goku minus the three-years training—that's not to say he wouldn't be stronger than he was when Trunks met him—would have been enough for them to win. That's the plan, and it's not contradicted. However, due to Trunks turning up, Goku and the others do get a lot stronger than they were supposed to be, and #17 and #18 were also stronger as a result.

There is nothing that suggests Trunks made any great improvement, and yet he's not eclipsed by Goku and Vegeta. At the very least, he's the third most relevant, ahead of Piccolo. So, while obviously much stronger than they would have been, I don't think their gains were as great as everyone else thinks.
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